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38 Responses to “Hello world!”

  1. lirlDridivy Says:

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  3. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Yes, I see my posts now. They must have fell into the WordPress spam trap since I have a number of links. You may delete my post of April 13 at 12:09 AM since it was a reattempt of the first post except removal of the hyperlinks.

    And I do believe you that Citizen X deleted my comment on the other blog.

    Also looking forward to your filling in the last two of the seven thunders you missed on the latest blog posting.

  4. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Just so that everybody realizes, I posted a brand-spankin’-new posting, so please check it out.

  5. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike on 4/13/2010 @ 12:34 AM

    Your comments are still on my blogg, and I have deleted none of them thus so far. If you’re referring to Citizen X’s blogg, I noticed that some were no longer there, which must have been Citizen X’s doing because I haven’t done anything on over there for a good lng while now.

  6. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    So what’s the problem? What happened to my comments?

  7. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    {It would seem my comment fell afoul of your spam filter, perhaps because I have several hyperlinks. You can rescue that version from the spam trap, or cut and past the URLs below}
    Wow Aaron, you typed a lot, even for you. I’m afraid I don’t have time to wade through it all right now.

    So here are a few points. You claim that you didn’t read his books until Pentecost of 2009. So you haven’t been listening to Weinland as much as I have, yet you claim to know more about him than I do.

    You don’t have to tithe because you don’t have income. You don’t have to fast because you’re not a member. I guess not even the Day of Atonement last year, much less the fast day on the first Saturday of February. Doesn’t seem that you’ve made really that much of a commitment. Did you even give up leavened bread, and eat unleavened bread for the DoUB? Even something as easy as that? What about clean & unclean meats?

    Your comment
    “Mike, one thing you have told me from before is that you do not have anything personal against Mr. Armstrong and you and not trying to take him and his predecessor on down, but my question for you is, why do you speak about paying-back Mr. Armstrong, and just paying this on forward on down the line since Mr. Armstrong is no longer living ? ”

    shows that you did not read the “About” page on my blog. I’m not going to parse it for you, go back and read it carefully.

    You ask:
    “One question I would liek to pose for you is, what would you do if Mr. Weinland begins commanding things and then they just happen, as per his powers as one of God’s End-Time Witnesses ?”

    Tell you what: Point out in the Bible where a prophet of God prophesied falsely and then later on correctly, and then I’ll play your “what if” game.

    “If God was allowing Mr. Weinland to speak what he spoke in order to give powerfull revelation at just the right perfect timing, then Mr. Weinland was speaking what he was commanded to speak, because speaking on the basis of God’s Church believing that Jesus Christ would be returning on the Feast Of Trumpets is essentially commanding them to speak it unless they are otherwise given correction. ”

    No, “http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+14:33&version=KJV”I don’t think so.

    “Now, how does an attorney willing to go on record risking a counter slander law-suit be grounds for this story to be adequately supported ? What if he was willing to risk a slander law-suit because he was willing enough to pay for some damages if it meant that Mr. Armstrong we be behind bars in prison,”

    This doesn’t pass the smell test. If he didn’t have the evidence to fight off a slander suit, in a civil case where the test is “preponderance of the evidence”, then how could his insufficient evidence for a civil case convict HWA in a criminal case where the evidence must be much stronger (beyond a reasonable doubt)?

    Then you unsurprisingly go on to say:
    “So thus, even if Mr. Armstrong did indeed have an incestuous relationship with his daughter, it wouldn’t even phase me because even God’s people wrongly sin.”

    To which I reply: “http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy+3&version=KJV” 1 Tim 3
    You said
    “Even before the timing in 1972, Mr. Armstrong had made it very clear to everybody that he was not setting a time-frame,…..
    ….Armstrong never stated that a certain event was 100% for sure going to occur in the year 1972, nor in the year 1975,”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. “http://ronaldweinland.info/falseprophet/2010/01/06/tevet-20-5770/”>He DID set dates!!!! You were what, 5 years old when he died, yet somehow you know what he did and didn’t do? Amazing!!!

    “Also, why would me focusing on this apocalyptic subject-matter have anything to do with my job-prospects or attractiveness to employers ? My focussing on Mr. Weinland and the Church Of God – PKG in no manner takes away from my job prospects,”

    Your focus on this false teacher is taking away focus that you should be putting on improving your skills, and your belief that the world is about to be turned upside down is hardly motivating toward starting a career. By the time you realize that Weinland is false you will have wasted precious time.

    “isn’t it possible that he used that money to further God’s work (such as like travelling all around the World preaching the Gospel into the World), and using only his own money to buy his wealth ?”

    Let me correct you on something right here. All of Weinland’s and Armstrong’s wealth came from tithes and offerings. Before they became apostles and whatnot, they were not independently wealthy. And it is not God’s work they’re doing, it’s their own. God did not commission them to do this, they presumed to do this. Take a read about “http://ronaldweinland.info/falseprophet/2009/12/02/ching-du-pai-gu/” HWA’s China trip.

    “Also, Mr. Weinland never prophecied that there would be no new President in the year 2009,”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. You haven’t listened to Weinland’s radio interviews from 2007. Listen to all of them. With an open mind. Particularly the one from Nov of 2007 with “The Edge”.

    You haven’t been listening to Weinland as much as I have, yet you know better than me. You’ve been involved in Armstrongism for less than a year, yet you know more about it than I do, even though I’ve actually seen the man long before you were even born. Get real. You’re just like the PKG member commenting on the latest post on my blog, just regurgitating what Weinland has said in sermons.

    And you continue to refuse to name names. If you don’t want to, then fine. But you might as well stop blathering about vile spirits. OTOH, I accuse people of demonstrating their vile spirits. Those people are Ronald Weinland and his follower “http://ronaldweinland.info/falseprophet/2010/04/11/ron-gets-upgraded/comment-page-1/#comment-4967” Dominic commenting on my blog.

  8. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Wow Aaron, you typed a lot, even for you. I’m afraid I don’t have time to wade through it all right now.

    So here are a few points. You claim that you didn’t read his books until Pentecost of 2009. So you haven’t been listening to Weinland as much as I have, yet you claim to know more about him than I do.

    You don’t have to tithe because you don’t have income. You don’t have to fast because you’re not a member. I guess not even the Day of Atonement last year, much less the fast day on the first Saturday of February. Doesn’t seem that you’ve made really that much of a commitment. Did you even give up leavened bread, and eat unleavened bread for the DoUB? Even something as easy as that? What about clean & unclean meats?

    Your comment
    “Mike, one thing you have told me from before is that you do not have anything personal against Mr. Armstrong and you and not trying to take him and his predecessor on down, but my question for you is, why do you speak about paying-back Mr. Armstrong, and just paying this on forward on down the line since Mr. Armstrong is no longer living ? ”

    shows that you did not read the “About” page on my blog. I’m not going to parse it for you, go back and read it carefully.

    You ask:
    “One question I would liek to pose for you is, what would you do if Mr. Weinland begins commanding things and then they just happen, as per his powers as one of God’s End-Time Witnesses ?”

    Tell you what: Point out in the Bible where a prophet of God prophesied falsely and then later on correctly, and then I’ll play your “what if” game.

    “If God was allowing Mr. Weinland to speak what he spoke in order to give powerfull revelation at just the right perfect timing, then Mr. Weinland was speaking what he was commanded to speak, because speaking on the basis of God’s Church believing that Jesus Christ would be returning on the Feast Of Trumpets is essentially commanding them to speak it unless they are otherwise given correction. ”

    No, I don’t think so.

    “Now, how does an attorney willing to go on record risking a counter slander law-suit be grounds for this story to be adequately supported ? What if he was willing to risk a slander law-suit because he was willing enough to pay for some damages if it meant that Mr. Armstrong we be behind bars in prison,”

    This doesn’t pass the smell test. If he didn’t have the evidence to fight off a slander suit, in a civil case where the test is “preponderance of the evidence”, then how could his insufficient evidence for a civil case convict HWA in a criminal case where the evidence must be much stronger (beyond a reasonable doubt)?

    Then you unsurprisingly go on to say:
    “So thus, even if Mr. Armstrong did indeed have an incestuous relationship with his daughter, it wouldn’t even phase me because even God’s people wrongly sin.”

    To which I reply: 1 Tim 3

    You said
    “Even before the timing in 1972, Mr. Armstrong had made it very clear to everybody that he was not setting a time-frame,…..
    ….Armstrong never stated that a certain event was 100% for sure going to occur in the year 1972, nor in the year 1975,”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. He DID set dates!!!! You were what, 5 years old when he died, yet somehow you know what he did and didn’t do? Amazing!!!

    “Also, why would me focusing on this apocalyptic subject-matter have anything to do with my job-prospects or attractiveness to employers ? My focussing on Mr. Weinland and the Church Of God – PKG in no manner takes away from my job prospects,”

    Your focus on this false teacher is taking away focus that you should be putting on improving your skills, and your belief that the world is about to be turned upside down is hardly motivating toward starting a career. By the time you realize that Weinland is false you will have wasted precious time.

    “isn’t it possible that he used that money to further God’s work (such as like travelling all around the World preaching the Gospel into the World), and using only his own money to buy his wealth ?”

    Let me correct you on something right here. All of Weinland’s and Armstrong’s wealth came from tithes and offerings. Before they became apostles and whatnot, they were not independently wealthy. And it is not God’s work they’re doing, it’s their own. God did not commission them to do this, they presumed to do this. Take a read about HWA’s China trip.

    “Also, Mr. Weinland never prophecied that there would be no new President in the year 2009,”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. You haven’t listened to Weinland’s radio interviews from 2007. Listen to all of them. With an open mind. Particularly the one from Nov of 2007 with “The Edge”.

    You haven’t been listening to Weinland as much as I have, yet you know better than me. You’ve been involved in Armstrongism for less than a year, yet you know more about it than I do, even though I’ve actually seen the man long before you were even born. Get real. You’re just like the PKG member commenting on the latest post on my blog, just regurgitating what Weinland has said in sermons.

    And you continue to refuse to name names. If you don’t want to, then fine. But you might as well stop blathering about vile spirits. OTOH, I accuse people of demonstrating their vile spirits. Those people are Ronald Weinland and his follower Dominic commenting on my blog.

  9. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike, one thing you have told me from before is that you do not have anything personal against Mr. Armstrong and you and not trying to take him and his predecessor on down, but my question for you is, why do you speak about paying-back Mr. Armstrong, and just paying this on forward on down the line since Mr. Armstrong is no longer living ? When I confronted you with this question from before, you responded by saying that you do not have anything against Mr. Weinland and then you even gave you a link to your About page on your blogg, but this is precisely where I had got my reasoning from that you seem to be wanting pay-pack from this, and so thus, I have surmised that this is a vendetta that you are paying forward against Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland. I mean, you couldn’t have made your intentions any quite clearer than in your very own words yourself. When this kind of personal vendetta comes into play for whatever you feel that Mr. Armstrong did or didn’t do, this creates circumstances whereby you just do not even want to see the truth because you still have to pay-back Mr. Armstrong by paying it forward to whom is alive and well today. This causes you to not be able to see the truth if this really truly is of the truth, and you just seem to refuse that any of this could very well be possible because you are dead-set on having your pay-back. Even without this pay-back factor though, you don’t seem to be willing to admit that maybe possibly you are wrong about Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland and maybe just maybe God is working in a manner that you haven’t yet been able to understand as of yet, you know what I mean though Mike ?

    One question I would liek to pose for you is, what would you do if Mr. Weinland begins commanding things and then they just happen, as per his powers as one of God’s End-Time Witnesses ? Or what are you going to do ifthe 10 nations in Europe arise and then Asia arises, and people have tried to kill Mr. and Mrs. Weinland but will have failed in their attempts and they shall be killed in the very same manner in which they attempted to kill them ? When more and mre things that Mr. Weinland has stated would happen to indeed come to pass but during a different time-frame than he had originally stated, would this then be enough to cause you to say that this is right and true, or would you still continue to say that Mr. Weinland is false since this would make Mr. Armstrong true and no we couldn’t ever have Mr. Armstrong be a true apostle of God ? I know that you said that you don’t like what ifs, but you were wondering for me what I would do if nothing were to happen in 2011. Just tell me what you would do if everything begins happening and there are NO OTHER 2 prophets whose claims are coming to pass, but except for that of Mr. & Mrs. Weinland ? How would you react to something like this if this were to happen, I’m genuinely curious to know how you would feel about this happening. Would you refuse to believe all of the way up until the very return of Jesus Christ, or what ?

  10. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike (DDTFA) on 4/11/2010 @ 9:59 AM

    I’m letting you know as a warning to not make fune of the way people talk, even if he is somebody you believe is a con-man deceiving people into giving them their money. Making fun of the manner in which Mr. Weinland says the word nuclear is making fun of him and this is not to be done within my blogg. You had told me from before that he should be speaking properly since He is God’s servant, but what about the various dialects out there ? It is not wrong to be prouncing the word just like even many educated folks pronounce it in this manner, not because they are not speaking properly, but just simply because this is their dialect. I don’t think that even President Barack Obama pronounces this word nuke-lee-er, and he is said to be one of the most charismatic and articulate persons. So thus, just please refrain from scoffing at the petty things that people shouldn’t be made fun of for, unless you would be liking somebody scoffing at the way you speak. Also, how about Moses though, he was one of God’s servants, but yet he didn’t speak too very well either, so should he be made fun off also since he is supposed to represent God but yet speaks very poorly ?

    Also, Mr. Weinland never prophecied that there would be no new President in the year 2009, but rather he said that he believed that the conditions of this nation nation by this point in time will have deteriorated enough that no election to the Presidency would be possible by this point in time, which once yet again he had faith in this because of what he believed regarding the timing for the returning of Jesus Christ.

    You might not have stated that Mr. Armstrong 100% for sure committed the crime of incest, but however, you did describe him by saying his incestuous relationship with his daughter, and even on your blogg, you state in many places regarding Mr. Armstrong’s incestuous relationship with his daughter as if it were already factual information. When you state it in this manner but then turn-around and say that there is not the evidence to convict him, I mean, why would there be a need to attach Mr. Armstrong to incestuous relatioship with his daughter if you’re open tot he possibly that the charges are really indeed false ?

    Yes, I am open-minded to the possibility that those charges could very well possibly be true, but I cannot just come-up with my own reasoning to then personally conclude that he’s guilty. You believe that he is guilty even though you wouldn’t convict him from on a jury. I cannot just personally believe that he is guilty when many people have been innocent for this kind of thing even if a lawyer was willing to risk a slander law-suit, or if a newspaper was willing to face libel. I mean, what if the newspaper wanted to see Mr. Armstrong crash-and-burn, they would risk alot for this to happen, this is how so very much that mankind hates the truths of God and many will stop at nothing to bring them on down low, which is precisely what mankind has tried to do ever since.

  11. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike (DDTFA) on 4/8/2010 @ 7:08 PM

    I actually was speaking of the sexual abuse that I thought many came forward claiming that they were sexually abused, I was speaking specifically about his daughter. I wasn’t talking about the claims of incest, and I had actually forgotten about this claim until you had mentioned it, but I apologize for not being clear on what I was meaning, as I just meant the sexual abuse claims in-general.

  12. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike (DDTFA) on 4/7/2010 @ 11:20 PM
    Mike (DDTFA) on 4/7/2010 @ 12:51 AM

    You mention how Mr. Armstrong didn’t respond with a slander law-suit, but how does this prove anything ? Surely we could read into this to assume that this makes Mr. Armstrong look more guilty, but if Mr. Armstrong just didn’t want to have all kinds of counter law-suits and all of those kinds of things like this, then this would be a reason to not counter-sue if he wanted to just let the accussations be because they would be there regardless, and if Mr. Armstrong was not just only about making some big bucks off of this, then this would be all of the more reason to just not counter-sue and create more tension and hardship for more people involved.

    Now, how does an attorney willing to go on record risking a counter slander law-suit be grounds for this story to be adequately supported ? What if he was willing to risk a slander law-suit because he was willing enough to pay for some damages if it meant that Mr. Armstrong we be behind bars in prison, and people do even very risky things in an attempt to bring somebody down that they hated. This should not make somebody think yeah most like so, because a reasoning and open-minded individual would know that many times people are made to appear guilty even when they are not. Also, why would the accuser wait 40 years after-the-fact to bring a case against Mr. Armstrong, I mean doesn’t this actually show that the accuser was trying to bring-down Mr. Armstrong because of some personal feelings against him, I mean 40 years later-on, I mean c’mon now, this makes it look bad for the plaintiff(s) for having this come into fruition only 40 years later, so this more-so seems like an agenda to me because they didn’t need to bring him on down 40 years back ago, but then they used this to bring him down when it would have been convenient for them to be doing so. Now, I believe that Mr. Armstrong is innocent, but it wouldn’t even matter to me if he was guilty of this. Do you know why though ? Because # 1 it was 40 years ago, and #2 even if it had been much much later-on, God’s people make grave mistakes in life sometimes. I mean, should we condemn one of God’s original 12 apostles for murdering somebody else ? Even God’s servants have committed grave sins such as like murder. I could just hear the cries of being a false servant had he killed somebody, even though one of God’s original 12 apostles, and maybe possibly even more of them but I’m not sure, murdered a man, but he still remained an apostle of God. So thus, even if Mr. Armstrong did indeed have an incestuous relationship with his daughter, it wouldn’t even phase me because even God’s people wrongly sin. I find it very intriguing for me that the asccusations were regarding 40 years ago and not even 20 years ago or 10 years ago or 5 years ago. If he was guilty of incest, then who’s to say that he didn’t pray to God asking for forgiveness and then help with repentence ?

    Now, on to regarding Mr. Armstrong’s prophethood. You are right that Mr. Armstrong claimed to speak for God, but this does not mean that everything that comes of out his mouth is of prophecy. Even before the timing in 1972, Mr. Armstrong had made it very clear to everybody that he was not setting a time-frame, and that it wasn’t the timing of the events which were sure to happen but rather it was the events themselves that were sure to happen. So there was never a date set as a matter of prophecy. Now, if you feel that every single word that comes out of the mouth of an apostle or prophet is a matter of prophecy just because he stated that he believed something would happen soon doesn’t make it of prophecy, then you don’t really know how God’s people are human-beings just like everybody else and say things that they believe are happening or going to be happening. Mr. Armstrong never stated that a certain event was 100% for sure going to occur in the year 1972, nor in the year 1975, but he rather just only stated what he believed was coming and when he thought it would be happening by, but it was by no means prophecy, unless of course your version of prophecy is anything that God’s servants ever say, even if just stating what they personally believe is happening or coming within this World. You claim that Mr. Armstrong was speaking in God’s name in what he said. So tell me something, is Mr. Armstrong telling God’s Church what he personally believes is coming soon and when he believes it is going to happen, if this a matter of prophecy just because he is saying what he believes ? Saying what he personally believes does not mean that he was speaking it in God’s name, because if this was just only purely his conjecture due to the events of this World and saying what he believed was happening, this doesn’t mean that he was prophecying just by stating what he believed is happening. When you prohecy, you don’t say that you believe something, you state something as a matter of it being 100% factual, and this is not what Mr. Armstrong did, and he himself even explained this to God’s Church before this timing was to even come. This would also mean that God’s servants were also false prophets for claiming that Jesus Christ was riding on into Jerusalem in order to free their people of the opressive Roman government and to also become King over them. Did this make God’s servants false prophets for saying that Jesus Christ was coming into Jerusalem to become our king when this was not true ? Does this take away from their genuineness in having full faith in God and in Jesus Christ ? Of course not, so why can’t you apply this same line of thinking to God’s modern-day servants ?

  13. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike (DDTFA) on 4/7/2010 @ 12:51 AM

    You speak regarding Mr. Weinland feeling entitled to perform such despicable acts since he believes that he is one of God’s prophets and witnesses, so are you saying that those are despicable acts whether or not somebody is a true prophet ? You call them despicable acts, but would you really truly consider them to be non-despicable acts if the events a prophet spoke did indeed come to pass during the original correct timing ? You say that he feels entitled to perform such dispicable acts, as if the acts themselves are dispicable regardless of somebody’s prophethood.

    You also said that your belief that Mr. Weinland is a false prophet is supported by his own definition of what would define him as being a false prophet. While it is true that Mr. Weinland said that he would be nothing more than a false prophet and that he would stop ministering if what he had stated didn’t come to pass. But you know what, I would fully expect any prophet of God to hold fast onto what God’s Church believes until otherwise given correction from God, even if he states that something will occur during a certain time-frame, because he should indeed state those things if they were supported by long-held belief in God’s Church, such as like that Jesus Christ was to be returning on the Feast Of Trumpets. If God chose to allow His prophet to speak those things since no correction was given and God’s timing had not yet come for giving this correction, and so thus speaking what God commanded him to speak since no correction had yet been given (God’s people cannot believe anything different unless correction is given), then whom are we to argue with God working in this manner ? God’s servants had believed that Jesus Christ was coming into Jerusalem to thwart the oppressive Roman government and was going to become their king right then and there. Obviously this didn’t occur, so why were God’s servants allowed to speak those things which God knew weren’t true (they were holding onto what they believed until God otherwise gave them some form of correction), but yet they still remained in their authority as God’s servants ? Now, grant it, this doesn’t just automatically prove Mr. Weinland’s prophethood, but if we use this basis to just automatically deem somebody to be a false prophet no matter what, then we also have to deem God’s servants to be false servants for being in the same situation by having faith in what they believed to be true before later-on being given correction to see where they were wrong, and this is how God’s Church has always worked. God’s Church was never meant to have 100% understanding of every truth and belief all at once. Are you able to mention a situation within the Bible whereby God judged and condemned His people for holding onto what they believed in and then changing their stances once revelation of truth came to them from God ? This is how God’s Church has worked throughout it’s history and it wouldn’t make any sense that God should condemn His people for believing what they believe until God gives them guidance for correction, because otherwise God wouldn’t have any servants left through whom to do His work upon this Earth because no apostle or prophet of God is perfect, and God knows that they are not perfect, and that they are going to believe many things that are not totally correct because God’s Church has never had all of the truth, and God allows this for HIs purposes until His great timing for correcting His people, and if they refuse this correction, then they would have to be cut-off from God.

    You also said that Mr. Weinland’s false prophethood entitles you to relentlessly mock even more than you have in the past. Show me where God or Jesus Christ taught us that we have entitlement based upon the actions of others, like Mr. Weinland being a false prophet, let’s say. I know that you believe in God and in the Bible, so why do you feel that you are actually entitled to mock Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland. Does it even matter whether or not Mr. Weinland is a false prophet to determine entitlement for mocking somebody, or even let alone entitlement of any kind at all whatsoever ? What Biblical authority do we have for feeling entitlement for something based upon the life of somebody else ?

    You stated that I argue that PKG is a benign organization since I would be allowed to fellowship with PKG even though I cannot yet do tithing because of my circumstances. This is a prime example of how you take things that people say out of context. I never said that PKG is a benign organization for this above reason. Then, once yet again, you feel that Mr. Weinland’s alleged exploitations and flasehoods warrant what you dish-out against him, and I just don’t get where you get this entitlement from, does this come from something God taught to mankind, or what ? We are not to feel entitled to anything based upon a certain condition being met for which somebody might then feel entitled to whatever it is they feel entitled to. I don’t care if Mr. Weinland was even a mass murderer or a child molester, does this give you entitlement to be mocking or ridiculing this person for their sins ?

    Regarding your request for me to be naming names, I’m not gonna stoop to this level of calling-out names as though I feel I need some justification for something like this. Anybody whom mocks or ridicules somebody (regeardless of how much evil this somebody might have done), which you have very openly admitted to doing a very lot of, has a vile spirit working within them. I have never made fun of somebody just because I didn’t agree with them or because I felt that I knew that they were liars, cheaters, money-milkers, or going crazy. I might tell them what they are doing or call them out on it or tell them how it affects me or makes me feel, but I don’t mock people, or ridicule people, or try exposing anything and everything I possibly can regarding people just because I have ill feelings towards them, I mean that runs so very much against the kind of love that we are to have for one another, even if we consider themselves to be bad people, we are to still love them and treat them just as like we would like to be treated. The people whom do all kinds of mocking and ridiculing and scoffing somebody for whatever justification they wanna dish-out, has vile spirits working within them because this is how Satan and his minions of demons work within people to stir-up their feelings and emotions which can influence them to then treat others badly. Even if Satan or his demons aren’t working within somebody, their own human-spirit (not a literal spirit, but the metaphorical human-spirit) is vile because God does not like this kind of behavior because it’s not of Him, and it’s not the way we are to be treating each other.

    Also, why would me focusing on this apocalyptic subject-matter have anything to do with my job-prospects or attractiveness to employers ? My focussing on Mr. Weinland and the Church Of God – PKG in no manner takes away from my job prospects, and this does not lower my attractiveness to employers, because most of them aren’t gonna be vigorously searching online on the Internet for everything I have done online but except for maybe for a Criminal Background Check. Even so, if any employer would reect me on the basis of my religious beliefs could be in trouble with the law if I were to choose to do something regarding something like this.

  14. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike (DDTFA) on 4/5/2010 @ 11:32 PM

    Let me first say that I want to keep this blogg respectfull, which means that I don’t want people using nicknames for the people whom they don’t like, such as like saying Herbie for Herbert W. Armstrong, or Ronnie for Mr. Weinland. Saying Herbie is being disrespectfull, and it doesn’t even matter whether or not Mr. Armstrong was disrespectfull, we are not to conduct ourselves based upon what others do. I’m not saying that you must address him as Mr. Armstrong or whatever, but just don’t be using a nickname which most people are using because they despise him and want to ridicule him because they feel that they have earned the right with which to do so, and I have only heard people addressing them as Herbie and Ronnie when it’s not in a good light, so. My purpose for my blogg is very similar to Citizen X’s purpose, to have a web-site where everybody involved is respected, and this includes the very persons whom you and many others believe to be false servants. Even though you personally feel entitled to sound disrespectfull against Mr. Weinland and Mr. Armstrong since you feel that they have sounded disrespectfull, I don’t see where God or Jesus Christ accepts this kind of behavior just because others behave in this manner also, and in fact, we are told to do just the very opposite of this. We could debate all night long whether or not Mr. Weinland has done this very same thing, but regardless of whether or not Mr. Weinland has behaved in this manner does not trump the intent of this blogg of mine. So thus, even though you feel entitled to just say just whatever is on your mind no matter what it might be, you can do that all you want on your own blogg as well as other bloggs similar to your blogg, but this is not the place for this kind of speaking, and I’m beginning to understand why Citizen X would just out-right ban your comment-postings because I have seen some of your comments that weren’t too very peachy and was full of sarcasm and callng them Herbie and Ronnie, and so then if you posted more softer comments after doing this, then he would want to ban all of your comments because of how you have spoken in the past, you know what I mean ?

    Also, I do choose to type alot when I’m expressing myself, and I respect the fact that you are not like this and this is fine and cool because everybody is different, but please don’t make cracks about it and tell me that I should learn to type less and stuff like this. So please just soften those kinds of comments if you want to continue posting comments onto here.

    Regardless of whether or not Mr. Armstrong was a false apostle and Mr. Weinland is a false prophet is up for debate for many people, but I do want to talk about why I believe in their doctrines. From what the Church Of God has said, this sparked intrigued inside of me to desire to learn more, desire to learn the truth, whatsoever that truth just so happened to be, even if it would squash what I had grown-up believing throughout my whole entire life. I’m sure that most of the now-former members of those organizations had this same intrigueness sparked withim themselves because they saw them as being different from the deceived World. Now, regardless of Mr. Armstrong’s apostlehood and/or Mr. Weinland’s prophethood, I have come to believe much of what they believe regarding doctrine because I’m seeing it within the Scriptures of the Bible, and I believe that God is helping me to understand what various things mean, as God and ONLY God can do, because we cannot just merely learn those things through our very own intelligence and intellect. Even if both Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland were false servants, I would still be desiring to follow what I have found the Bible to be saying, and if this 2nd Trumpet still doesn’t blow by 2011, then I will still be desiring to follow what I feel God is helping me to understand regarding the Bible.

    I very strongly believe in God’s 7th-Day Sabbath, and Jesus Christ kept this 7th-Day Sabbath and he also kept all of God’s Annual Holy High-Day Sabbaths, and he never ended those things, and he even went so far as to say that not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Law before heaven and Earth pass away. So thus, if none of God’s Law shall be ending until Heaven and Earth pass away, then why shouldn’t we be keeping God’s Law including God’s 7th-Day Sabbath and all of His Annual Holy High-Day Sabbaths ? Then the other side normally asks well why aren’t we still required to sacrifice animals ? Well, those things contained in Moses’s Law as ordinances aren’t part of God’s Law. God had Moses give certain ordinances which he wrote into a book, and those ordinances were to be followed by the people of Israel. Those ordinances are what passed-away upon the physical death of Jesus Christ, but nowhere does the Bible state that any part of God’s Law was no longer required to be kept, and even the people that agree that the 10 Commandments comprise God’s Law, they still have a very major beef with this 4th Commandment of remebering the Sabbath and keeping it holy.

    But anyhow, my point I want to make is that I desire to follow those things because it is what the Bible tells for us to do, and is what was taught both to the Jews and to the Gentiles. It seems like most of the persons whom now despise anything to do with Mr. Armstrong and/or Mr. Weinland will just absolutely refuse to believe in anything which was taught by either of them. I mean, shouldn’t we be following what God has commanded for us to be doing regardless of what false prophets say ? Make no mistake about this though, I’m not saying that I believe Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet, but I’m just merely saying that if he were a false prophet, would that take away our responsibility of us following what God and Jesus Christ commanded of us to be following ? Why must so-called tradition Christianity be on the correct track just because a false servant taught something differently ? False servants can very much indeed state many doctrines which are true, even if they falsely speak of other things. Now, this doesn’t mean that false servants state true things, but I’m sure that some of them state things that so happen to be of the truth. It just seems like the people whom are now against Mr. Armstrong and/or Mr. Weinland don’t want to have anything at all whatsoever to do with any bit of anything of what they have said, even if some of their doctrines are indeed of the truth. This is why we should be following what the Bible tells us regardless of the trueness of those 2 individuals. I’m not gonna stop keeping the 7th-Day Sabbath if Mr. Weinland turns-out to be wrong regarding this next year.

    Now, regarding what you have said within your comment-posting, an organization touting various apocalyptic messages does not make that organization a cult, does it ? I mean, whichever church out there turns-out to be God’s Church, wouldn’t you expect them to be also giving understanding regarding End-Time events since the Bible very clearly tells us that there will come prophets and witnesses and they will prophecy ? So, even though many organizations that teach things of an apocalyptic nature could very well be cults, this doesn’t make them a cult. I mean, many of the persons during the 1st Century A.D. Church Of God felt that the members of the body of Christ were part of some kind of cult that was not following the right thing, so other people crying-out that God’s Church of today is of a cultish nature wouldn’t deter me from learning more about it.

    I very much examined Mr. Weinland’s message, and I didn’t come to what I believe very easily because I had to come to grips with what I grew-up believing was true only to read within the pages of the Bible that I was deceived by this World. Mr. Weinland’s apocalyptic messages weren’t all of what drew me to believing them. I examined what other churches teach and found them to be false according to the Scriptures of the Bible. I was already intrigued very much already from what I was learning regarding God’s 7th-Day Sabbath and how both this as well as God’s Annual Holy High-Day Sabbaths fit into God’s plan of 7,000 years for mankind, but however, I became even more intrigued upon reading regarding Mr. Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. giving a sermon in Atlanta, Georgia of the nature of denouncing God’s Law, that most of it was not meant to be kept by the person’s of today’s World, and this is important because what then followed after this could have very well occured after any one of Mr. Tkach’s sermons but it happened following this very jaw-dropping sermon. The fact that Mr. Tkach died 40 Sabbaths later to the very hour of giving this sermon in Atlanta really struck me. Now, this didn’t make me believe either, although it did help with this quite a bit. I know that so many people talk about this being one of those “lying signs and wonders”, and I do very strongly believe that those lying signs and wonders do indeed exist, but this doesn’t mean that this timing of the death of Mr. Tkach was part of lying signs and wonders. I just found this particular fact to be very powerfull for me, but it didn’t put some kind of spell on me whereby I became a zombie and would just blindly follow them from that day on forth. I mean, I read 2nd Thessalonians and t just all made so much sense to me, since it says that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, and that it would have to be taken out of the way. It talk about the man of sin sitting (in authority) in God’s temple (God’s Church) and exalts himself above all that is called God (such as like God’s Law). Then, it goes on to talk about knowing what is restraining, and this man of sin being revealed in his own time. The lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. This seems to be saying that this “man of sin” will be revealed by God’s consumption of Him with the breath of His mouth, which is what would have happened when Mr. Tkach died 40 (number for judgement) Sabbaths later to the very hour of committing this abomination of desolation (the desolation of God’s Church). Then, all of God’s Church was spewed from out of God’s mouth, essentially cutting themselves off from the flow of God’s Holy Spirit living and dwelling within them, and 1/3 of them fleeing to other organizations, 1/3 of them just giving-up and quitting because of what happened and didn’t know what to do anymore, and the other 1/3 just believed what Mr. Tkach was saying and remained within this organization. This just seems way to powerfull to dismiss as being a lying sign or wonder. Had this time-span been for 39 weeks, or for 41 weeks, or for any other time-span, this wouldn’t mean much to me then, but not only 40 Sabbath later, but to the very hour ? I mean, this is screaming-out to me that God wanted to pin-point not only the very day, but the hour during which this heresy was committed against God and His people.

    Now, if this timing just stopped right there, I might very well feel differently (although please understand that it’s not just only the timing of things that has intrigued me for this). But however, then this very same 40-Week timing creeped back up by marking the time-span from between Satan’s festival of Christmas (which Satan has used the very most to deceive Christians into falsely following what is not of the truth, regardless of Mr. Weinland’s prophethood) in 2007 until what would be the sealing of God’s 144,000 first-fruits comprising God’s Kingdom when it comes to this Earth (as well as the announcement of the final count-down for the return of Jesus Christ, and also the announcement of the final count-down for the ending of the reign of Satan upon this Earth) on the Feast Of Trumpets in 2008, the same period of 40 Weeks. Then, to top this all off, the timing of this same 40 Weeks going from the 1st Trumpet on 12/14/2008 (derived from the Feast Of Trumpets in 2008 being the final 1,335 Days) to the Feast Of Trumpets in 2009 is further astounding. Then, finally, the 1,335 Days going from this same Feast Of Trumpets in 2008 until Pentecost 2012, the very day which has symbolized God’s first-fruits in His Kingdom as well as God’s Holy Spirit being poured-out upon His people. I mean, those things are difficult to dismiss, although I will have to if Mr. Weinland’s time-frame goes bust once yet again. Many people think that I would just find some other excuse as to why His 2nd time-frame went bust but I will have to swallow my pride and say that I was wrong and begin searching for where the truth really truly is. Now, this timing alone doesn’t make me believe that Mr. Weinland is whom he says that he is, but it is everything else combined together into one.

    Now, regarding the 2-Day Fast, firstly, this fasting was only for members of God’s Church, because it has meaning for them since they have God’s Holy Spirit living and dwelling within them and they are sharing in the New Covenant that they agreed to when they were baptized into the body of Christ. I’m not currently a baptized member of the body of Christ, and plus, I didn’t even know everything I knew yet, as I hadn’t even read both of Mr. Weinland’s books until just only days before Pentecost in 2009. I do believe that the first step is accepting God’s 7th-Day Sabbath because if somebody is not even willing to believe in the very very first command that God gave for mankind, the very day on which we learn from Him and about Him and about His purpose and plan for us and this World, then they most certainly will not be humble enough to believe any other part of God through faith in Him and faith in Jesus Christ. Then, we have to accept Jesus Christ as our Passover by actually believing what Jesus Christ said and did regarding the sign of whom the Messiah really truly is. It’s kinda funny how many ex-members of the Church Of God like to say that Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland are wrong regarding so very many things, but yet, most of them seem to now believe traditional Christianity’s view of Good Friday evening burial to Easter Sunday morning resurrection, which just very blatantly denies the very sign which God gave as proof of whom the Messiah is, and to believe any other kind of tiing is to deem that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah, and so thus did not fullfill the Passover sacrifice for all of mankind. This seems to be because they don’t want to believe that anything coming out of the mouth of Mr. Armstrong and/or Mr. Weinland could possibly be of the truth, even if other things they say could be of falsehoods. But anyhow, even if Mr. Weinland turns-out to be a false prophet, I will still continue believing those things which the Bible confirms, and and all of should be doing this very same thing regardless of Mr. Weinland’s prophethood, because maybe his teachings of the doctrines are true but his understanding of prophecy has been false. I urge all of you, regardless of whether or not you believe Mr. Weinland, to follow what the Bible says regarding what we are to follow and what we are not to follow when regarding doctrine. Many of you believed that Mr. Weinland might just very well indeed be one of God’s prophets if his first time-frame had panned-out, which must have meant that those very same persons were believing of the doctrines which he has been teaching of. Many of you never ever believed him, but I know that some felt that he could very well be whom he has said he is, and those very same people now believe the various teachings of traditional Christianity, even though they weren’t really condemning him before his original time-frame had come and passed, meaning that they were believing those doctrines which he has been teaching, which means that they must have confirmed them from within the pages of the Bible, but now that they have deemed Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet they just suddenly don’t confirm those doctrines in the Bible any longer ? My pont in this is to say that we should not believe the other churches just because Mr. Weinland is deemed to be a false prophet, because even if he is indeed a false prophet, this doesn’t take away from the fact that much of his teachings of the doctrines are confirmed in the Bible, but they just refuse to follow them, probably because they want to become as distant as they possibly can be regarding anything and everything that Mr. Weinland has ever said.

    Now, I would like to comment regarding the personal things that you wrote about. One thing I would like to ask you is do you know for sure what Mr. Armstrong was using the tithings for ? Is it because of his lavish house and travelling all over the World that led you to believe that he must be using the tithings of the members of the body ? Isn’t it possible that he used that money to further God’s work (such as like travelling all around the World preaching the Gospel into the World), and using only his own money to buy his wealth ? The Bible shows us that God normally tends to use people whom are poor and have nothing, but there were some whom were very fortunate in their lives and he still used them to teach God’s ways in His Church, so couldn’t Mr. Armstrong have been used in this manner, especially since it would take a wealthy individual to be able to travel all around the World for decades upon decades ? Do you know for sure that Mr. Armstrong used the tithes for purposes other than for doing God’s workupon this Earth, or are you just supposing that he did because of his wealth ? Wealth doesn’t mean corruption, although lots of times it does mean corruption, but this cannot be supposed to determine somebody’s intentions. Isn’t it possible that Mr. Armstrong also did indeed tithe but wasn’t enough ? Not only this, but even if Mr. Armstrong had billions upon billions of dollars at his disposal, that wouldn’t nullify God’s Commandment of tithing, which means that God’s tithes should be used first because that is the purpose of tithing. The tithings of Mr. Armstrong as well as the tithings of the church helped spread the gospel into the World and help flourish the Church’s magazine whereby selling millions upon millions world-wide. Now, no disrespect intended by this, but was your Dad forced to donate extra above and beyond what he was required to through tithing ? It was a generous gensture for him to donate extra, and yes, Mr. Armstrong might have asked for extra at different points along the way, but the extra wasn’t required of him by God.

    Many ex-members seem to feel that they had no other choice than but except to keep on following Mr. Armstrong and keeping the way of life that they really truly believed in. We all have the free moral agency of choice, and even if Mr. Armstrong was a false apostle and even if he was intentionally lying about stuff, he can only be half-blamed because Mr. Armstrong wasn’t the only person in the Church with choice. Nobody was forced into following Mr. Armstrong, and while I do very much sympathize if your family’s life was difficult because of him believing that the tribulation was just right around the corner and then it didn’t come into fruition, were they forced into living in this manner ? They chose to do it through faith, and that was their choice. Should they not feel any bit responsible for their choices and decisions of following whom they follow ? This goes for me and everybody else out here, we all have choices to make and we have to take responsibility for our choices. If Mr. Armstrong was a false apostle, then yes, part of the blame would be on him especially if he was intentionally deceiving which may not have been the case even if he was a false apostle, but none of his critics seem to take even a smidgen of the responsibility for choosing to follow Mr. Armstrong as nobody was forcing anybody. For instance, if Mr. Armstrong wasnt followed, then there would have been no more tithing and no more being taken out of school and no more of anything else, and that could very well have changed alot of things, but they chose to follow, and they have to take some of the responsibility for choosing to follow. Now, this doesn’t make him false though, because just because things didn’t pan-out in the precise manner in which he believed they would doesn’t make him a false apostle. Most of the people opposed to Mr. Armstrong are connecting him with being false because of false prophecies, even though Mr. Armstrong himself had said that he was in no manner a prophet and was not saying that the timing of events is what was a sure thing. Were the apostles who told what they believed was happening false prophets (or even prophecying) for telling what they believed ? Of course not, because even God’s servants give what they believe is happening without it being a matter of prophecying. Yes, Mr. Weinland was prophecying (or giving understanding of existing prophecy) but he did it in full humility and humbleness before God because he used what God’s Church had believed for many many decades in order to prophecy, and if God allowed him to speak those things to then give him correction later and to show why the timing was to wait to reveal this timing, then Mr. Weinland did not speak what God didn’t allow for him to speak (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). If God was allowing Mr. Weinland to speak what he spoke in order to give powerfull revelation at just the right perfect timing, then Mr. Weinland was speaking what he was commanded to speak, because speaking on the basis of God’s Church believing that Jesus Christ would be returning on the Feast Of Trumpets is essentially commanding them to speak it unless they are otherwise given correction. If God had not corrected them until his perfect timing to do so, then God is allowing them to speak those things just as if they had come from Him because they are holding onto and keeping their faith in what they believe in until otherwise given correction from God, and God would expect no less from His people than to hold onto what they believe is true until He gives them correction in His own perfect timing, and we cannot argue with God’s timing of things, and so thus we cannot use this as proof that Mr. Weinland is a false prophet. Now, we could make the arguement that Mr. Weinland is a false prophet for other different reasons, but not for what I have outlined here above.

    Now, regarding people up-rooting their lives in order to follow the truths of God. Didn’t God’s people in the early Church have to up-root their lives in order to follow Jesus Christ in totall faith ? God’s people were persecuted, and were even taken into captivity (not speaking of the captivity in Egypt though) for believing what they believed, for speaking against the Roman government in favour of a future anointed Messiah King. Not even the apostles were perfect when it came to talking about what was happening in the World, because they didn’t know the future minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, month by month, or year by year. They moved all over the place, and were even taken into captivity. Now, if this kind of thing happened with Mr. Armstrong, many people would have blamed him for leading them into their captivity, even though it wouldn’t have been him that made this happen. Also, God’s servants were hailing that Jesus Christ was coming into the city of Jerusalem to take his righteous place as king and would rule all of the nations in their generation. This was obviously not correct, and they were given correction later-on through the revelation that God’s Kingdom was of the future, and was not of the present. Had this occured with Mr. Armstrong, people would have been upset with him for falsely teaching them. The feelings of God’s servants of what they believed was about to happen in the World were not false teachings, but they were just merely incorrect, but they were offered correction at some point within their futures. They were shown why Jesus Christ was not to become king at that particular moment in time, and they were shown why they were taken into captivity, even though they didn’t understand those things at first. So thus, just because an apostle gave his belief of what was happening in the World did not make it false teaching and intentfully lying, and giving those beliefs were not a matter of prophecy because he himself even stated before the timing in 1972 that he was not a prophet at all whatsoever and his job was not that of prophecying future events, and he made it very clear before this timing that the things being for sure were the events themselves and not the timing being for sure (he did give his feelings or beliefs regarding when he thought those events would be taking place, but he made it clear that he was not prophecying those events. It’s much more understandable why people would deem Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet because of his original time-frame and not believing that God could have allowed this to occur for a great purpose, but however, Mr. Armstrong himself made it clear that he was saying that the events are what are sure to happen but that he was not prophecying a certain date or time-frame but merely giving when he “believed” those events would happen, but not when he “knew” those events would happen.

    Now, regarding other members other than yourself, somebody dying for refusing medical treatment. I mean, this is kind of icky because it involve medical treatment. I don’t believe in Western medicine because even though it has helped many persons for a time, it has also crippled many people, such as like my mother, whom has battled with endometriosis, 2 out of 4 births resulting in mis-carriages, cancer on her arm, tumour on her thyroid and now has no thyroid function at all whatsoever, and is now diabetic, all because of a drug called Danocrin, of which this very similar sequence of events has happened with the famouse singer Anne Gillian from the same endometriosis and the same tumour on her thyroid and she was also taking the same Danocrin drug. Now, I don’t know what condition this member had or what medical treatment he refused, but just because Mr. Armstrong used to tell people to not seek traditional medicine doesn’t mean that he had to refuse whatever medical treatment it was. I mean, if I felt that my life would be in danger without the medical treatment, I would have welcomed it even if my minister told me that I should be doing differently. I think part of Mr. Armstrong saying what he said was because he believed in the healing aspect of God’s love. If God is true in to His Word, then he will heal the ill persons whom are keeping God’s Commandments, which means repenting of their ways if they are sinning. Now, I’m not saying that this was the case with this person whom died from refusing medical treatment, but whom really knows though ? But either way, they didn’t have to refuse the medical treatment if he felt his life was in danger, but they chose to refuse it. I mean, why would Mr. Armstrong desire for the body to refuse medical treatment, because if anything happened to them, then he wouldn’t be able to receive the tithings, so for Mr. Armstrong it would be better for his members to receive medical treatment IF he were just purely a con-man trying to milk them out of their money. Also, they admit that they didn’t understand the truth regarding healing, that it’s not just about the physical healing of the body. But plus, if this man would have otherwise been physically healed, then maybe he wasn’t healed because he wasn’t repenting. Now, this is just a possibility, and it’s still not Mr. Armstrong’s fault for this man’s death if he chose not to accept medical treatment. Perhaps Mr. Armstrong preferred not having medical treatment because he believed in God’s physical healings, so thus, we really cannot use this as showing that Mr. Armstrong is not of God.

    In mostly everything that you say against Mr. Weinland, you rarely ever say that you could very well possibly be wrong in what you believe regarding Mr. Armstrong. I have admitted so many times that I could be wrong, and if tis turns-out to be the case, I will have to repent and move on forward asking for God’s help in guiding me into the light of his truth, but I just don’t see you thinking that maybe you could be wrong about how you’re feeling regarding all of this stuff.

  15. William Says:

    Sorry I accidently click submit before I finished writting.

    In reply to you comment

    “But Weinland doesn’t even have that weak escape path. He claimed to be speaking for God when he said that there would be nukular explosions by July of 2008, and that there would not be a new US president in 2009.”

    I was going to say that I don’t think Ronald Weinland is a prophet or one of the two witnesses which I have my reasons for.

  16. William Says:

    “Hmm, I didn’t see anything in Deut 18 about the prophet claiming to have a revelation in a vision.

    Herbie claimed to speak for God. He was speaking in God’s name when he prophesied. It is not necessary to say “I am a prophet of the God of Abraham” in order to be a false prophet.”

    Deut 18:20 “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.”

    Lets look at it in context. Deut 18:18-22 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

    So we can see from this that God says He will rise up a prophet up from among them and will put His word in the prophet’s mouth. God then tells them that a Prophet who speaks in God’s name (authority, glory, reputation) something that God has not commanded Him or in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. Israel would know if the Prophet was speaking God’s word or not by if the thing the Pophet said came true or not.

    Now in scriptures God communicates to His Prophets by dreams and visions. One of the definitions of the word Prophet is spokesman, which is what the Prophets did. They communicated God’s words to the people (which they got from God in visions, dreams and angels) That is part of what being a Prophet entails. So a Prophet who was speaking a word which God has not spoken would have had to claimed

    1. That they where a Prophet i.e they where God’s spokesman and get communications from God (which God does in dreams and visions).

    2. Proclaim a future event in God’s name i.e that the God of Israel gave them a dream or a vision that such and such and evet would happen.

    3. The event does not happen by which Israel would know that God did not command the Prophet to speak the word.

    HWA did not claim these things. He did not claim to be a prophet (receive vision and dreams from God) and that God told Him that this or that event would happen. So while He may have spoken very strongly at times that He believed that such and such would happen, the Biblical standard for what makes a false prophet does not fut HWA.

    “But Weinland doesn’t even have that weak escape path. He claimed to be speaking for God when he said that there would be nukular explosions by July of 2008, and that there would not be a new US president in 2009.”

    Well since I don’t believe that Ronald Weinland it a prophet

    “As far as the incest thing, I never claimed that it was evidence on which he could be criminally convicted, and said that it wasn’t. The issue is what you choose to believe.”

    I wasn’t saying that it was not evidence on which He could be criminally convicted, but that there really is no evidence for the claim at all. We have no where, where HWA’s daughter ever said it happened or reported anything to the police. What we have is people claiming that so and so said this, yet never providing when the person told them this, what was said word for word, how they know that the person is telling the truth, reporting it to the police or going to any news outlets and reporting what they know to them so they could do a story on it. The supposed evidence for the claim is very poor indeed.

    “No doubt you have an explanation you can believe as to why an attorney was willing to say something slanderous like that and a newspaper was willing to commit libel by publishing it.”

    Yes and no dount you have a reason why why none of the people who supposedly knew about the claim never provided when and how they came about the knowledge (who the person was who told them, when and were they told them) what was said word for word, how they know the person is telling the truth, reporting it to the police or going to any news outlets and reporting what they know or why the former Mrs Armstrong did not go through and actually testify what was said in the newspaper.

    “I suspect that even if there were video of Herbie and Dorothy together that you would still refuse to believe it.”

    Based on what do you make this assumption. All I have done so far is point out that the claim has no real evidence to support it. If you have something that you think is evidence then please provided it.

    On a side note to this all the people I have talk with on the internet who say that they have heard a tape where HWA confessed to the claim and know where it is, when asked, have not provided what was said in the tape (they just say He confessed) and when I keep asking them to tell me where I may hear the tapes they never provided the information despite them claiming they know where they are.

    “I’m open to the possibility that the charges are false, are you open to the possibility that they’re true?”

    If there was produced some real evidence (HWA daughting saying that it happened, the tapes where HWA supposedly confess made public) then yes.

  17. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Hmm, I didn’t see anything in Deut 18 about the prophet claiming to have a revelation in a vision.

    Deut 18:20 “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.”

    Herbie claimed to speak for God. He was speaking in God’s name when he prophesied. It is not necessary to say “I am a prophet of the God of Abraham” in order to be a false prophet. But Weinland doesn’t even have that weak escape path. He claimed to be speaking for God when he said that there would be nukular explosions by July of 2008, and that there would not be a new US president in 2009.

    As far as the incest thing, I never claimed that it was evidence on which he could be criminally convicted, and said that it wasn’t. The issue is what you choose to believe. No doubt you have an explanation you can believe as to why an attorney was willing to say something slanderous like that and a newspaper was willing to commit libel by publishing it. I suspect that even if there were video of Herbie and Dorothy together that you would still refuse to believe it. I’m open to the possibility that the charges are false, are you open to the possibility that they’re true?

  18. William Says:

    Mike you said “William, if it were someone else about whom such a public accusation were made about such a despicable act, and that person didn’t respond with a slander lawsuit or at least a public denial, I expect you’d think the charges could very well be true. As far as police involvement, this was 40 years after the fact and well past the statute of limitations.”

    Well again this is not evidence. If people are going to say that the claim the HWA committed incest was true then there has to be produced some strong evidence for this. A claim that comes from “so and so said this” without providing when it happen, what was said word for word, how they know what the person said is the truth and not reporting any of it to the police is very poor “evidence” for the claim. HWA not responding to the claims does not prove that they are true as the burden is not on HWA to disprove the claims but on the people making the claims to provide evidence for it. They are the ones that are saying it happen so the burden of proof is on them to provided evidence for it. And as I said before their supposed “evidence” is very poor indeed.

    “But let’s set the incest issue aside and focus on the how HWA was a false prophet. HWA claimed to speak for God, and he made prophecies. Prophecy is as prophecy does. Cut out the jailhouse lawyering.

    Let’s try this: go to the neighborhood convenience store, point a gun at the clerk, and in your nicest voice say “Would you please fill a sack with all the money in the cash register and hand it to me?”. Then, when you get caught and taken before the judge, tell him “I didn’t claim to be an armed robber. I just asked very nicely for a donation.”

    If it walks like a false prophet and quacks like a false prophet, then it’s a false prophet.”

    But that really dosen’t address what I said. Deut 18 shows it deals with a person who is predicting a event by personal revelation from God (and as God says in scripture He speaks to a prophet through a vision or dreams). If it doesn’t come true then they are a false prophet. That is the standard that is given. HWA when saying He believed such and such would happen, never said that this came from God speaking to Him, God giving Him a dream or a vision.

    So by he scriptural definition of what a false prophet is I don’t think it can be applied to HWA.

  19. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Aaron said: “Mike, I wasn’t even the one whom brought-up the incest issue,”

    Au contraire. On 4/6 at 10:11 PM, Aaron said: “know there were rumblings of embezzlling and sexual-abuse, but were those things ever able to be proved ?”

    You brought up the subject, even if you didn’t use the exact word. That was the statement to which I was responding.

    And Aaron said: “being attacked left and right in an aggressive manner and a bunch of sarcasm”

    If I’ve done that here, please explain exactly which of the other commenters I did that and how.

  20. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Mike, I wasn’t even the one whom brought-up the incest issue, and if you’re gonna make a charge or an accusation, then expect that others might be defending of this. You said the word, and so then William responded to it, and then I haven’t yet said anything about this issue as of yet, so I’m not going on and on, although when the time comes, I will be commenting about this. I was hoping that you would have respected my request for not posting anything further until I have caught-up on everybody’s comment-postings. I will address your questioning but it might not be the answer you’re looking for, and please don’t forget that I have the same rules as did Citizen X, although I’m not gonna just ban somebody based upon how they conduct themselves on other web-sites, but the spirit of my blogg is the same as Citizen X’s blogg, which is a place where pro-Weinland or on-the-fencers to have a place to come where they don’t feel like they are being attacked left and right in an aggressive manner and a bunch of sarcasm and just so much pounding everywhere as is found on so many oher bloggs, because otherwise I would just let those bloggs take care of everybody, but everybody should be able to have a good place to go whereby they can express themselves without fearing being bashed by people whom firmly believe that Mr. Weinland is a false prophet. I’m asking everybody whom posts comment-responses on here on my blogg to follow the kind of respect which Angel and xHWA and most others have exhibited on Citizen X’s blogg over at “The Weinland Witness” located at: http://theweinlandwitness.wordpress.com/ They very firmly believe that Mr. Weinland is a false prophet and also believe that Mr. Armstrong was false and a liar, but they conducted themselves in a respectfull manner. I shall soon respond back to the comment-postings that I have received over the past few days or so, I was planning on doing this last-night but this didn’t work out for me then, although some people would consider this lying when saying they will do something but then not do it, kinda like my Mom’s abusive ex-boyfriend Barry.

    Aaron Robinson

  21. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    I hope you don’t go on and on about the incest issue, because that’s really besides the point. We’re never going to be able to prove it conclusively one way or the other. If I were on a criminal jury, I’d have to find him not proven guilty based on the evidence I have. But I’m not on a criminal jury, so I can make up my own mind on the issue, which again is beside the point as to whether HWA is a false prophet.

    And will you be responding to my comment posted at 11:12 PM? Ever going to name names? Or just continue muttering about vague people with vile spirits?

  22. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    I will be responding to some comment-postings tonight, and I would like to request that nobody send in any more comment-postings until I have responded to Mike (DDTFA)’s comment-posting from 4/7/2010 @ 11:20 PM, thanks for your help on this everybody. 🙂

    Aaron Robinson

  23. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    William, if it were someone else about whom such a public accusation were made about such a despicable act, and that person didn’t respond with a slander lawsuit or at least a public denial, I expect you’d think the charges could very well be true. As far as police involvement, this was 40 years after the fact and well past the statute of limitations.

    But let’s set the incest issue aside and focus on the how HWA was a false prophet. HWA claimed to speak for God, and he made prophecies. Prophecy is as prophecy does. Cut out the jailhouse lawyering.

    Let’s try this: go to the neighborhood convenience store, point a gun at the clerk, and in your nicest voice say “Would you please fill a sack with all the money in the cash register and hand it to me?”. Then, when you get caught and taken before the judge, tell him “I didn’t claim to be an armed robber. I just asked very nicely for a donation.”

    If it walks like a false prophet and quacks like a false prophet, then it’s a false prophet.

  24. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Aaron, I’m still trying to get you to name names. Let’s make it simple: for each of the following, answer yes or no as to whether that person has shown vile hatred for Weinland:

    myself, Mike (DDTFA)
    Dill Weed
    Jack635
    Kirrily
    Debbie
    Aggie
    Whisper
    Baywolfe
    xHWA
    Karen Mustard
    J
    Mark
    Atrocius
    Steve
    RK
    Bob Thiel (Cogwriter blog)
    Gavin Rumney (ran the Ambassador Watch blog)
    Mike McConnell
    James Whale
    Daniel Ott

    Just to make it easy for you, all of these have commented on my blog within the last month except for the last 5 names. The last 3 names are radio interviewers. The prior two names of the last 5 have also criticized Weinland on their blogs.

    So again, Aaron it ought to be easy. Copy the names in your reply and put a yes or a no as to whether the individual has demonstrated vile hatred toward Weinland.

    Also, you’ve stated that Weinland doesn’t mock his critics when I’ve provided examples where he clearly has. Explain why his mocking isn’t really mocking where if I did it, then it would be vile hatred.

  25. William Says:

    Well, it is not really evidence by what was said in the Newspaper but is more hersay which is all that is ever provided for the claim the HWA committed incest.

    In the news paper it says “Lawrence Decker, Mrs. Armstrong’s lawyer, said the testimony would explain an understanding the couple reached about Armstrong’s prior incestuous conduct with his daughter for many years.”

    Now did the former Mrs Armstrong actually testify that in court? Because as far as I know she didn’t. This seems to be the case for everyone who supposedly knew about claim or was told by someone about it. They never went to the police, never provided what was said word for word etc. So it can not be said about the claim “Yeah, most likely so” as all the supposed “evidence” is very poor indeed.

    As for HWA being a false prophet I don’t think this can be said to be true according to the scriptural standards as to what a prophet is and what makes a false prophet. HWA never said that He was prophesying and prodicting events in God’s name from personal revelation from God. And He never claimed to be a prophet. Deut 18 shows it deals with a person who is predicting a event from personal revelation from God (and as God says in scripture He speaks to a prophet through a vision or dreams) and HWA when he did say that he believed such and such would happen didn’t say that God told Him in a vision or a dream.

  26. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Your answer to my pointing out your hypocrisy regarding Weinland’s vile spirit and spiritual death attempts is based on Weinland believing that he is a true prophet of God and a Witness entitling him to perform such despicable acts. My belief that Weinland is a false prophet is supported by his own definition of what would define him as being a false prophet, as well as that contained in the Bible in Deut 18:20-22. This entitles me to mock him relentlessly even more so than I have. Weinland’s belief that he is a true prophet of God and and end-time Witness is supported by???? what exactly???

    As far as Herbie’s incestuous relationship with his daughter, it is adequately supported by an AP news story quoting an attorney who was willing to go on record with this risking a slander suit, which did not materialize. While not enough to obtain a criminal conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, it is enough for a reasoning individual to say “Yeah, most likely so.” But in the end, whether or not Herbie is guilty of incest with his daughter has nothing to do with the fact that he was an exploiting false prophet.

    You argue that PKG is a benign organization since you would be allowed to fellowship with PKG even though you are exempted from paying tithes by your circumstances (although back in Herbie’s WCG you would not have been allowed to skate on this). Although Weinland is not the most despicable exploiting false prophet there ever was, nevertheless he is despicable enough, exploiting enough, and false enough to warrant whatever I’ve dished out on him. No apologies for that. Nor are there any apologies for what I’ve dished out on those who support him.

    And yet, despite repeated requests, you never have named names. Who exactly are Weinland’s critics who have a vile spirit, and who are those who do not have a vile spirit?

    You should also be aware that if PKG realizes that you are running this blog, that you will be required to shut it down. And a little birdie tells me that they are aware of it. I hope you don’t hook up with them, but if you do and they require you to stop blogging I hope you’ll at least let us know. Better yet is that you quit focusing on Weinland’s apocalyptic nonsense and that you rather focus on making yourself more attractive to employers. There will be a long term cost to you, which would be difficult or impossible measure to measure in $$$ for continuing on your current path.

  27. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Debbie on 4/6/2010 @ 7:46 PM

    I appreciate your comment on pursuing my academics, that’s very kind of you to say.

    I do want to make sure that you understand that I’m not calling every person whom disagrees with Mr. Armstrong and/or Mr. Weinland vile and hatefull, because I’m sure that many of them do genuinely care regarding even them. I’m mainly addressing the people whom like to mock, ridicule, and personally attack Mr. Weinland since his prophecies didn’t occur during the original time-frame. Even if Mr. Weinland is indeed a false prophet, this doesn’t make it right to say things in a mocking manner, which doesn’t mean just merely disagreeing or disbelieving, but to turn it into mocking and a disrespecting attitude is not right, and even if Mr. Weinland was acting in this manner himself, would this still yet make it right to do the very same thing back to him, or is revenge something that Jesus Christ taught us to make sure that we get ? I’m not saying that everybody is doing this, but even when Mr. Weinland says or does good things, it is always turned into something bad, and it’s not only just this, but it’s lots of times turned into a mocking tone and we shouldn’t be doing this, regardless of whether or not Mr. Weinland is doing this himself. Now, regarding Mr. Weinland, since I currently believe that Mr. Weinland is God’s prophet, I believe that he is conducting himself just as God would wat him to be conducting himself, using what God has given him as per Revelation regarding what the 2 witnesses are to do regarding their mockers and enemies. Let’s just say that we ended-up finding God’s prophet whomever he might be and his prophecies do indeed come to pass just as originally stated by whomever this prophet may be, wouldn’t you still have to be against this prophet’s spiritually threatening whomever his mockers are ? If we are against this for Mr. Weinland then we should be just as against this as for with whomever really truly are God’s servants. I don’t believe that Mr. Weinland has been out of line if he really truly believes that he is God’s prophet and not just saying those things to gain power all-of-the-while knowing that he’s not of God, and Mr. Weinland is the only human-being on this planet Earth whom knows this information. I would totally expect God’s prophet to behave in this very manner towards his mockers because that is part of his job as one of the 2 End-Time Witnesses.

    But anyhow, I’m not saying that you personally are a vile Weinland hater, and I might have stated this in a more general manner in the past, but then I later made it clear that I’m not talking about just anybody whom simply disagrees with Mr. Weinland, such as like Citizen X, Angel, or xHWA, they are very cordiall and speak respectfully of Mr. Weinland even though they disagree with him, and those attitudes are the attitudes that God loves for us to have, one of not just listening to all of his sermons and finding fault with so very many things that he says, I mean like poking fun at them having trouble with the formaldehyde fumes, or one of the elders stumbling on through the closing-prayer, or being allergic to fragrances, I mean he’s still a human-being and no manner of being God’s End-Time Witness changes things like this. Even if Mr. Weinland is indeed a false prophet, we shouldn’t be talking this way about anybody, regardless of whom they are or what they have done. Now, we don’t have to agree with him, but we shouldn’t be talking about people in this manner regardless of whom he is.

    I know that for most self-proclaimed prophets, they tend to be the ones to draw people in and drain them, but this doesn’t mean that all prophets are like this, and this doesn’t mean that God’s prophet would be like this. People believe that tithing is a sign that he is a false servant because he’s out for the money, and this could very well be the case, but if God has commanded us to be tithing our incomes, then I would totally expect whomever God’s servants are to be saying that God commands this tithing. It would be one thing if this couldn’t be found within the Bible, but it’s in both the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. Prophets requiring tithing could be a sign to be carefull of them, but it’s not a sure thing that tells that he is a false prophet because whomever God’s prophets really truly are would be stating that God commands His people to be tithing to God’s Church to finance God’s work upon this Earth.

    I also want to say that I don’t have any kind of different standard of God’s people than I do for all human-beings. I realize that God’s people are human-beings also just like the rest of us. Even Mr. Weinland has stated that God’s people sin just as like the people in the World sin, but the difference with God’s people is repentence, and some in God’s Church aren’t repenting just as like they should be and so thus they will not be given God’s favour in this coming tribulation period. God’s people sin just like this World sins, and this in no way changes my expectations of how God’s people act, although I won’t be surprised if they conduct themselves differently than the World conducts themselves if they really truly are God’s Church. I do expect that people within God’s Church should be repenting of their old ways by examining themselves and allowing their sins to expose themselve on the surface so that they can then deal with them. So in a certain sense there sorta-kinda almost is a lil’ bit of a higher standard because even God expects His people to conduct themselves differently than the rest of this World because this is the whole purpose of them being called on out of this World, to become humbled and to learn the right way of living their lives through repentence of their old ways and changing to God’s ways, so in this sense the standard is different, but I totally realize that they still are human-beings and will make mistakes and errors and will sin just the same as the World sins, but the difference is repentence and submitting themselves before our Eternal God to seek His help in changing their lives for the betterment of others through learning the self-sacrificing kind of love.

    Jesus Christ and His apostles, prophets, and disciples never had it easy because of the how the World is, and I believe that this is what is happening with the Church Of God – PKG, even if some of the ex-members believe that he was a false apostle and did them wrong, there isn’t total proof that he isn’t whom he said that he was, so I at least need to consider him as being God’s servant until it is clear to me.

    Aaron Robinson

  28. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    RK on 4/6/2010 @ 6:11 PM

    I understand what you mean, and you are right. In order to keep their faith, they have to put everything into it. If they turn out to no longer believe later, then this might have created some unfortunate circumstances throughout their believing. It is true that many many persons claim to be of God and doing God’s work and are purposefully lying to be able to milk people dry and stuff like this, but however, this doesn’t mean that it’s always like this. Some people really genuinely do believe whom they say they are. Besides following what is shown in the Bible along with what Mr. Armstrong was believing would be happening sooner not panning-out (which is different than prophecying though), is that essentially the reason why most of you stopped believing him ? I know there were rumblings of embezzlling and sexual-abuse, but were those things ever able to be proved ? I’m not just trying to get him off of the hook by defending everything about him, but if a few people claim this kind of abuse, how do we know whether or not it is true. Just as possible as Mr. Armstrong was secretly abusive is just as much as possible as some of those members were out-right lying about him because they wanted to bring him down because they wanted to see the old-man gone because he was losing his marbles and the church needed a massive changing. I mean, both of those things are just as much as possible, and even most of those whom were members of the Worldwide Church Of God don’t know for sure whether or not he did those things, and are basing their assumptions on things that they heard from other disgruntled members. I know that having a good lawyer can mean that you could get-off clean while still being guilty, but is does it always happen this way ? Some people do get off of the hook because they are innocent, and only the person making the accussation knows whether or not it’s the truth, and sometimes an accussation is made without much proof of the charge. Since I wasn’t there, I can only go by some accounts that I heard about, but I also hear very good accounts too from people whom are members of the scattered Church. So really it’s difficult to know what to believe, but I do keep both sides of the equation in my mind and I have been cautious.

    Just remember that Jesus Christ and many of His apostles, prophets, and disciples were accussed of doing various things which were un-true, and we don’t always know what their motivations were, but many times it was because they wanted to find fault with them if they did the slightest bit of something that they couldn’t understand the meaning of for, or they were intentfully wanting to get rid of them, or whatever their reasons might have been. Now, this doesn’t mean that those were the intentions of the disgruntled members of the Worldwide Church Of God, but we just have to remember back during the times all throughout history that this has happened regarding God’s Church, even involving persons whom were members of the Church. Now, once yet again, this doesn’t prove what their intentions were under Mr. Armstrong, but we cannot rule it out just because there are accussations there.

    I do agree with you that alot gets lost if things were all in vain, but what if it really truly wasn’t in vain though ? What if Mr. Armstrong really was God’s apostle but we want to put fault on him for telling what he believed would be happening in the future and people planning their lives according to those things ? God’s people throughout the history of the body of Christ had to endure those things, even if what they believed was imminent didn’t pan-out because they weren’t correct in what they were thinking was just on the horizon. Sure, some left God’s Church because of this, but most just pressed on going because they had very much faith in Jesus Christ that this is where God was working. The biggest factor under Mr. Armstrong seems to be that people were up-rooting their lives based upon what Mr. Armstrong believed was imminently happening (even though they were never prophecies and and he even wrote to clear this matter up because he wasn’t a prophet, although even prophets can sometimes say things that they believe will be the case4 even if it turns out to be true, such like Mr. Weinland saying that he believed that it wouldn’t be possible for the United States Of America to be able to hold elections for the Presidency in the year 2008 because of what would be happening by then. This wasn’t what he wrote about in his books and he didnt state this as prophecy when he said it, as this was just what he believed to be the case since he had 100% faith in his understanding of his prophecies since he was basing everything upon the belief of Jesus Christ returning on the Feast Of Trumpets. When somebody says that they believe somethingwill be the case, this makes it not prophecy because if you have to believe something first, then it’s just only a belief and beliefs aren’t universal. Now, had Mr. Armstrong stated what he did in the manner in which Mr. Weinland stated what he did, then I might feel differently because unless Mr. Armstrong received some kind of revelation from God as I believe Mr. Weinland did regarding trhe 50th Truth, then this would be different, but he only stated what he believed was happening, not what he knew wa happening, and there is a big difference with this, and just like I said from before, he had cleared this up before-hand because people were grumbling and so he wanted to make it absolutely clear that he wasn’t saying that the timing was absolute, just that the events to occur were absolute. So thus, if most of the problem stems from the up-rooting of their lives and then World War III wasn’t yet coming into fruition, this doesn’t make Mr. Armstrong a false apostle just because he said what he believed was happening and turned-out to be wrong, and just because he lived a comfortable life-style and was able to travell all around the World for many many years, as I would expect this of somebody whom was tasked with something as massive as preaching the gospel into the World as a witness unto all nations, and this doesn’t mean that he was spending the tithings for his own persnal wealth, other than to be able to travell all around the World, which was part of God’s work.

    Now, regarding me myself, I will not be able to blame anybody else but except for myself if Mr. Weinland turns-out to be a false prophet, because I heard the warnings from the persons whom disbelieved and whom were once a part of the Worldwide Church Of God, I have no excuses and I will have to live with those decisions in my life. If I had the ability to do so, I would genuinely lend my help to anybody whom was up-rooted and needed some help in life, but I’m currently un-employed and even if I were, it wouldn’t be such a high-paying job whereby I would be able to do something like this anyhow, but I would desire to help since they no longer believe. Also, what if Mr. Armstrong truly believed whom he said he was, even if he was indeed a false servant ? This would mean that he wasn’t intentionally trying to deceive anybody, but rather truly believed in his commission regardless of whether or not God had given it to him or not. Now, this doesn’t mean that this was the case, but I’m sure that even many false prophets believe in what they are saying because it felt like it was coming from God because it came from another spiritual source, but this source being demonic in origin. This isn’t always the case, but sometimes it is, which means that they weren’t intentionally trying to deceive anyone because demons broadcasting thoughts or emotions into somebody’s mind can feel very very similar to God broadcasting thoughts or emotions intto somebody’s mind. We have to think of all of those possibilites, and believe you me, I have thought about all of those possibilities and when I put everything together into one, I very much feel that Mr. Armstrong was God’s apostle and Mr. Weinland is God’s prophet, even though so many people disbelieve him.

    I’m gonna be responding to Debbie’s very last comment-posting on here, so please stand-by for this… 🙂

    Aaron Robinson

  29. Debbie Says:

    The unemployment problem is a tough one – Good on you that
    you are pursuing further education –

    I can agree to disagree – that is not a problem for me – You are
    completely entitled to believe whatever you wish

    The main reason I am having this dialogue with you is so that
    you are aware that I am one of the people you have
    characterized as a Vile, Weinland Hater/Mocker – Aaron, that just
    is not the truth

    My perspective is that many of the contributors of Mike’s
    blog do not have a hatred for Ron Weinland per se

    It is the behaviors which we are addressing – Just as RK & Mike
    have written here – We have a problem with self-proclaimed
    religious leaders who ‘draw’ people in so that they can control
    them mind, body & pocket book – and there are many out there

    We just so happen to be in some ways connected to Armstrong
    and his many different splinters

    The best to you in your fellowshipping with the PKG folk – From
    what you have written on your blogs, you have quite a high
    standard of how godly people interact – I hope you won’t be
    too disappointed by what you find there as they are just as
    human as we are

    Take Care

  30. RK Says:

    I see what you are saying, that you don’t rule out the possibility that you could be wrong, and that you might realize that later on.
    And that seems reasonable enough, on the surface.
    But it’s not that easy.

    Here’s the problem: these kinds of religious movements ask for years and years of commitment, and the giving of your MONEY.

    And many, many people, after all the years of commitment and giving of their money, when it finally becomes evident that the prophet is not who he says he is, they also realize that there is NO RECOVERY, financially speaking.

    Quality of life has been downgraded, permanently, and all those years of giving and commitment have been wasted, and there is nothing that can be done to get it all back.

    The only thing, that I know of, that somebody can do, is to heed the warnings from those who have already been there, and done that. And to pay attention to the apostle Pauls’ warning, to “let no one defraud you”.

    It’s easy to say that you might believe differently in time.
    But when it involves years of your life, and the quality of life that comes from financial well-being, it’s a whole different story.

    That’s all I can say.

  31. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    I will clarify. What I meant was that my believing that God is showing me the truth, and this doesn’t mean that I am 100% right, which also means that it doesn’t mean that you are 100% wrong. I’m not saying that they are wrong in their own evaluations because they are thein own evaluations and opinions and those aren’t wrong. Now, I do believe that the other churches are wrong in what they are teaching, and hence I do believe that some are wrong in what they believe, but nobody including myself can know 100% for sure whether or not they have the truth, and what I believe are astrong beliefs, but I’m not so very steeped in all of this that I would not be willing to see where I thought wrong when the time comes. If they evaluate Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland to be false, then that is their evaluation and I cannot say that they are wrong in their opinions of them because they aren’t even my opinions being made. I do believe that they are not correct that Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Weinland are false, because I believe them to be true. Even though I don’t believe that they are seeing the truth, I’m not saying they are wrong because I have said before that maybe I’m wrong about all of this and I’m being deceived, but however, this is what I’m believing right here right now, but this might change in the future depending upon what happens over the course of this next year. I could be wrong, and everybody else could be wrong, but this isn’t going to stop me from believing what I believe until that time. I do believe that Mr. Weinland is one of God’s 2 prophets and witnesses for this End-Time period, but this doesn’t mean that everybody else is wrong, because as I have stated in the past, I could be wrong anyhow, but right now I don’t believe I’m wrong, but I’m not gonna be condemning everybody else as being wrong just because I feel that I’m right.

    Aaron Robinson

  32. RK Says:

    “Most people already know this, but I believe that Mr. Ronald Weinland is one of God’s 2 prophets and 2 witnesses for this End-Time period that I believe we are in right now.”

    And to Debbie you said:
    ” Let me first say that I’m not saying that you and others are wrong in your evaluation that they aren’t whom they said they are.”

    With all respect, Aaron, if you believe that Ron Weinland is Gods’ end-time witness, as you have stated, then you also believe that Debbie and others ARE wrong in their evaluation of Ron.

    So just come out and say it, and then the difference in the two opinions can be discussed from there.

    Otherwise, it makes you look like you are saying two opposing things at once, which dampens your credibility, and ruins the opportunity for you to be taken seriously.

    Respectfully.

  33. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    Let me first say that I’m not saying that you and others are wrong in your evaluation that they aren’t whom they said they are. I don’t want you to write anything and everything that had ever happened to you within those organizations, but just the things that you feel were the worst things, because each person is different and I don’t want to have to go through every posting on Mike’s blogg to be able to discover what you wrote, but I’m just asking for a few of the things that bother you the very very most about Mr. Armstrong.

    Regarding my own personal situation, I have been trying to meet with Johnny Harrell, one of the evangelistswithin the Church Of God – PKG, but I don’t have my own transportation, but he has extended the invitation for me to meet with him, but it’s difficult for me to just pick up and go on down to meet with him because I have no transportation. I haven’t been able to do any kind of tithing because I’m un-employed and thus have no income, although I have had many jobs in the past, it’s just been very very difficult since the on-set of this economic crisis, and even though the national un-employment rate has slightly dropped during recent months, the un-employment rate here in Georgia continues to rise, now nearly 11%, and as many people know, the figure is normally double what the government’s figure is because if you are not actively seeking for employment and reporting this to the Department Of Labour, then you are not even counted as being un-employed regarding the monthly employment reportings. But anyhow, even without me being able to do any kind of tithing, I have been offered to fellowship, but my current situation makes travelling kinda difficult, although I have worked something out with one of my faily members to maybe possibly be able to get a ride on down there whenever I should so need to. The Church Of God – PKG requires tithing based upon our income, but all of the income I have had was my Financial Aid for my school, of which I normally had much excess, but he told me that I shouldn’t be tithing with that. I mean, if they are so very strict regarding requiring tithing and they just trying to empty our wallets, then why won’t they say that we could use our Financial-Aid money for tithing ? I mean, you can use Financial-Aid for essentially anything and you don’t have to report what you’re doing with it, but why wouldn’t they desire to say that we could tithe with this so they could get heir hands upon even more and more money ? I know that they require most people to be tithing whom have income, but if somebody is un-employed, then it’s a different situation because then there is no income to be had. But anyhow, I have still be offered to fellowship.

    Faith can be a very difficult thing sometimes, as we know from the Bible that this is no easy picnic. The next commentposting commenter has raised some points that I would like to address, which kinda fits in with this line of thought.

    Aaron Robinson

  34. Mike (DDTFA) Says:

    Here are a few things I experienced growing up in a WCG household:
    — none of the traditional holidays such as Christmas, Halloween, etc were observed. Restricted from participating in any holiday-related school events.
    — not participating in school extra-curricular activities because most took place between Friday sundown and Saturday sundown
    — being clothed exclusively from garage sales so that Dad could pay two – three tithes and donate extra besides to build God’s house even though it was shortly before the 1972 Great Tribulation
    — as a 9-year-old being required to fast on the day of Atonement. And fasting means NO food and NO water.
    — being taken out of school for two weeks in the fall to attend the feast of tabernacles
    — being told that planning for a normal life entering adulthood was pointless since after all the great tribulation is around the corner.

    That’s right Aaron. There have been other times that Jesus Christ didn’t return according to the schedule of one of the end-time Elijah’s, such as the Feast of Trumpets of 1975 well before you were even a gleam in your father’s eye. Herbie was just not quite as blatant about his false prophecies as Ronnie.

    And some didn’t happen in my family, but it happened in others
    — someone dieing from refusing medical treatment
    — families broken up because one of the spouses had a prior marriage, possible a short marriage as a teen. Too bad
    — someone who joined an even worse cult and ending up going to prison. The cult had the same apocalyptic messages that Herbie did.

    Even though I didn’t join another cult, the apocalyptic messages cast a pall even though I had quit following. I wonder why you’re examining Debbie’s message so carefully. Did you do the same to Ron’s message? What is it about his message that attracted you? What research did you do, or did you just let ?God? put it in your mind?

    Aaron, which of Herbie’s teachings are you following? Did you fast for the fast days that Ronnie called? Are you giving him 10% of your income?

  35. Debbie Says:

    It would take pages & pages of text to outline my experiences – If you are really interested, some are outlined on Mike’s blog

    In summary, for me, as the result of being directly involved with these two organizations and after much investigation I came to the realization that neither Ronald/Herbert are who they claim(ed) to be

    How is it that you, Aaron, who has not been directly involved with either organization or it’s leader(s), can support these two men and say that myself and others who have been directly involved, are wrong in our evaluation?

    And, if you are so supportive of Ronald Weinland & his organization, why is it that you are not a baptized member of COG-PKG; which involves Sabbath Keeping, Paying Tithes & Offerings and attending Holy Day Services?

    Just wondering 🙂

  36. muzicsoulworldly Says:

    I appreciate your replying to my blogg posting. If you don’t mind my asking you this, could you recount some of those experiences that you’ve had ? I don’t want to make any kind of determination without knowing more regarding your experiences. Did you have to up-root your life in order to follow Mr. Armstrong’s advices ?

    Aaron Robinson

  37. Debbie Says:

    HI Aaron –

    Please allow me to tell you a bit about myself – I was a baptized member of WWCG. and thus directly involved for 7 years in the chuch organization which Mr. Armstrong headed – My baptism status was recognized by Ronald Weinland and I was directly involved with PKG for a few months end of 2007 & @ beginning of 2008 – Prior to being ‘a member’ of PKG for those few months, I spent several months reading & studying Ronald Weinland’s publications and listening to Ronald Weinland’s sermons between 2005 to 2007 – I have been studying the Bible since I was a child -about 45 years or so now.

    I have read most of what you have written on Cit X’s blog, your posts to Mike’s DDFA blog and that brings me to your blog here.

    In my efforts to get to know your thinking better I ask the following:

    How is it that you so easily discount & invalidate the actual experiences that myself and others have had with direct interactions with Herbert W. Armstrong’s church and Ronald Weinland – especially in view of the fact that you have not had similar experiences or interactions?

  38. Mr WordPress Says:

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